Will the US ever get it right in Somalia?

The raid by US forces in Somalia is the latest in a catalogue of catastrophic interventions by western powers.

by Warsan Cismaan Saalax
guardian.co.uk, Friday 18 September 2009

The American raid in Somalia last Monday is likely to join a long list of US foreign policy failures. Many of these efforts were guided by self-interest coupled with lack of appreciation for the historical and cultural contexts. Somalis are proud nomads who value their freedom and independence. They are also suspicious of strangers due to their experiences during the scramble for Africa, which left a bitter taste. Somalis in what was once called Somaliland moved freely back and forth for centuries without any restrictions. The imperial powers then decided that it was too big a land for grazing nomads. As a result, Italy, France and Britain divided the land among themselves.

The final blow came when Britain decided to give a piece of the land – namely the Ogaden region and the Northern Frontier District – to Kenya and Ethiopia, separating families and igniting a desire to reunite with them in the ensuing pan-Somalia movement. Today, Somalis are distrustful of any projects that involve foreigners. Their fears have been classically reinforced by US foreign policies that constantly switched sides in Somalia’s conflicts.

Since the inception of Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government (TFG) in 2004, the journey has been a rollercoaster. Initially, the US overlooked the TFG because a long-term engagement policy was not an option. Instead the US employed a group of warlords who promised miracles as partners in the war on terror. Millions of dollars were redirected to this endeavour. The plan backfired and provoked an Islamist takeover of the south central regions. The US was left to firefight and supported the consequent Ethiopian invasion.

Unsurprisingly, a fierce uprising against Ethiopia followed, leading to an embarrassing withdrawal from Somali soil. The US continues to support the TFG, which is inherently weak and unable to withstand attacks by the well-organised insurgency. Yet the US came up with a massive plan, injecting millions of dollars into TFG, and boosting arms supplies to its militias. Some of these weapons mysteriously found their way to the insurgency.

This is not the first time the US has misread the fortunes of Somalia. In 1990, a few months before Siad Barre’s dictatorial regime ccollapsed, General Norman Schwarzkopf told Congress that military aid was critical to help preserve Somalia’s political and territorial integrity.

Barre was a notorious dictator: summary executions and detentions without trial were commonplace. The man nicknamed “Mighty Mouth” made even yawning in public a punishable crime. During the cold war, his style of government was treated as a minor inconvenience. Keeping the gateway to Africa and the Middle Eastern oil supplies communism-free were seen more important – a position that Barre used very well. For 20 years he wavered mischievously between left and right, blackmailing his way to building the biggest arsenal in Africa. The US gave him $800m in aid, while Italy poured in $1bn, half of which went on arms.

In 1991, Barre’s rule ended and the country fell to armed opposition groups. What began as a noble resurrection against tyranny soon to took an ugly twist. The southern clans’ alliance, led by the infamous General Aidid, chased Barre out of Mogadishu and began cleansing the capital of his clan. The alliance then turned on the peaceful communities of the capital, killing and uprooting millions of people. The southern alliance soon turned on itself, reducing the country to chaos for the next two decades.

In 1993, almost two years into to this mayhem, a UN relief operation led by the US was initiated to save the starving children caught in the middle. The mission also sought to disarm the fighters and hand the country back to the people. Instead, the US has literally put it at the mercy of warlords. Unaware of the mental state of General Aided, the US took sides. In no time Aidid switched from collaborator to a fugitive, leading to the consequent Blackhawk confrontations which killed 18 US rangers and thousands of nameless Somalis.

Young, angry, and with few or no employable skills, Somali men from around the globe march back, apparently to rid the country of infidel collaborators and the evil of capitalism. Add this to rising piracy off the Gulf of Aden and Somalia can no longer be ignored. While one appreciates that US interest must come first, there is no foreseeable win situation through cat-and-mouse politics.

Yes, last Monday’s attack brought a terrorist down, but the conditions that bred him persist. Since then, we have seen the first fruits of that ill-advised mission in the form of the deadliest suicide attack so far, which killed 11 people, including the deputy commander of the African Union force trying to protect Somalia’s weak government. These are signs that things are about to get worse. Yet nothing has changed in US policy, which seems oblivious to the fact that too much blood has already been shed.

Contrary to the popular belief, extremism in Somalia has not come out of an empty terrain; it grew over time and in a context. Plans to reverse it will need serious thought.

This must be accompanied by change of attitudes towards Africa. Already the UK is leading the way by amending the law in order to deal with Somali individuals wanted for crimes against humanity since 1990. It is not enough, but it is a start, and I hope other countries will follow the UK’s example.

Comments from

pritz29
18 Sep 09, 9:54pm
At least the U.S has shown intent and willingness to fix the problems that persist in Somalia, as oppose to other nations who prefer a policy of inertia. The efforts of the U.S are not always ill concieved, but Somalia is a troubled region, without a stable government and a growing centre for maritime piracy.

The writer of this artice, rather perplexingly, seems to have left out Al-Qaeda and Jihadist forces which fund, arm and train alot of the islamic insurgents and have philiosophical common place with the Al-Shabab.

Also the U.S efforts are always going to be undermined by the nieghbouring African countries and regional organisations which feel much discomfort when foreign troops and forces attempt to ameliorate persisting problems in African nations, all foreign involvement must some-how meet the ‘rubber-stamp’ of the organisations.

It is difficult to see how some of Somalia’s problems can be fixed, but a start would be atleast to ensure a stable government and un-arm many of the insurgents and defeat them in their strongholds, as migrated to neighbouring countries won’t be a concievable option for them, like it was for the taleban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan to move to Pakistan. All this however is easeir said than done.

omverse
18 Sep 09, 10:00pm
Nice to see a British Somalian woman speaking out, we need more of you, pity you can’t see beyond the usual excuses.

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Clip | Link riziki
18 Sep 09, 10:03pm
Will the US ever get it right in Somalia?

Shouldn’t a more pertinent question;

Will the Somalis ever get it right in Somalia?

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Clip | Link darkillusion
18 Sep 09, 10:04pm
Contrary to the popular belief, extremism in Somalia has not come out of an empty terrain; it grew over time and in a context. Plans to reverse it will need serious thought.

The reasons for extremism in other parts of the Middle East and Africa. But USA foreign policy knows only death and destruction. And any country predominately Muslim that favours an anti-capitalist agenda hasn’t much chance.

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Clip | Link PresidentD
18 Sep 09, 10:10pm
So we killed Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan, a vicious, murdering terrorist who had strong links with al Qaeda.

That’s a good thing.

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18 Sep 09, 10:10pm
be*

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18 Sep 09, 10:15pm
your article is an exemplar of clarity and concise communication of information

thank you

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18 Sep 09, 10:16pm
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18 Sep 09, 10:17pm
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18 Sep 09, 10:18pm
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. stevehill
18 Sep 09, 10:19pm
You make some good points, but they are lost by the time we get past the lengthy preamble trying to ascribe post-colonial guilt to European powers.

At some point Africa needs to start blaming Africans for the messes of today, and doing something about it, rather than resorting to tired old cliches about what people might have been doing in the 1950s and earlier.

Meanwhile, the world is better off with one less very dangerous terrorist in it – somebody to whom Somalia chose to give a safe haven, along with all the pirates, jihadists etc. This is a rogue state with no functioning government.

I don’t often say this, but well done America.

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18 Sep 09, 10:20pm
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18 Sep 09, 10:27pm
The author tries to educate the know-nothing brutes that have taken hold of Western societies (starting with the USA and its English poodle); good, unfortunately she feels it necessary to adopt their vocabulary and their mind frame.
I’m not sure this is useful… from the commentaries, it looks that even this pandering and gentle voice is lost in the desert – not the Somali one: the desert of the Anglo-US societies. Nothing can educate what is basically a bigot and racist mentality.
But as a brave Somali, Mrs Saalax had to try and she did her best, I presume.

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18 Sep 09, 10:29pm
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. halgeel84
18 Sep 09, 10:52pm

No, the United States will never get it right in Somalia for number of reasons. First, because the United States lacks critical expert knowledge of Somali culture, politics and society. When in 1979, Jimmy Carter and his foreign policy advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski decided the best interests of the United States served by supporting Siyad Barre, rather than strong, pro West and primarily middle class opposition groups, the United States bid on the wrong horse.

From 1979 to 1991, the United States supplies weapons, military training to Siyad Barre and very little else to Somalia. Next chance came two years later, in 1993 during the Operation Restore Hope. However, rather than disarming criminal warlords, the U.S military used this operation a training for the future U.S. humanitarian militarism. So Operation Restore Hope was a dress rehearsal for the new American interventionist agenda. We know how that ended. In 2006, the United States brought unmitigated disaster to Somalia.

Today, the United States is considered by non-political ordinary Somalis as the number one enemy of Somalia. President Obama has not changed this perception. The cowboy style shooting of four teenage Somali pirates is read differently by the majority of Somalis than the American public who saw it as a great victory for the United States.

The only real option for the United States in Somalia remove primarily pro U.S Africom trained troops from Uganda and Burundi out of Somalia. Troops from Uganda and Burundi are tainted by their close association with the Ethiopian occupation forces and with Africom. The United States knows this but it has blocked all initiatives to replace troops from Uganda and Burundi and Rwanda with troops from neutral countries.

Few days ago there was another blog on Somalia at CIF. I left a comment there in which I stated that targeted assassinations of alleged Al Qaida suspects-[[note allegations are not prove of guilt] will lead to more violence in Somalia and will discredit the Sharifs regime. I think it is fair to say that the United States is trying to perpetuate chaos in Somalia
http://www.geocities.com/arcticreds/somalia.html

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18 Sep 09, 10:58pm
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18 Sep 09, 10:58pm

farfrom

18 Sep 09, 10:18pm (34 minutes ago)
There have been suggestions backed by some evidence that hunter gatherer
and nomadic populations take a long time to adapt to middle class democratic
societies., 3or 4 hundred years has been mentioned.
Those countries that have had settled agriculture for a long time do appear to adapt reasonably quickly.

Actually, Somalis are very good in all sorts of skills. How it is the Russians were able to train some Somali doctors, engineers and fighter pilots in less than 9 years-during which period Somalia was part of the Soviet block-[ note these nomads know how to speak Russian, German, Italian and French. Your attitude toward Somalis is informed by American mindset for the British show great deal more respect to the Somali people.

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18 Sep 09, 11:03pm

Konky

I have predicted how the 2006 the U.S intervention in Somalia will end and I was spot on. The United States will not gain foothold in Somalia for the simple reason that there is widespread dislike for the United States in Somalia and rather than fixing the sources of antiAmerican feelings in Somalia the Obama administration reinforced them.

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18 Sep 09, 11:09pm
halgeel

"Today, the United States is considered by non-political ordinary Somalis as the number one enemy of Somalia"

This statement is ridiculous. By definition, anyone with opinions as to what nation is their enemy is, in fact, political.

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18 Sep 09, 11:16pm

lightreading

no, this statement is a fact. The United States is much hated in Somalia.

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18 Sep 09, 11:28pm
Halgeel,

I did not say that the US is not much hated in somalia. I've never been there so I wouldn't know. I said that anyone with such an opinion is political, and cannot be non-political. This is because it is a political opinion, implying a political element to that person's thinking. It's ricidulous to say otherwise, as you did your post which I was refering to.

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18 Sep 09, 11:34pm
Halgeel,
You do take offense readily.

I never said that was my opinion , I said it had been suggested that

I am quite sure that Somali has many talented people , all countries do .

I do have the opinion that the world commutity should somehow attempt to find a way to provide a more decent life for the peoples of Somalia and similar countries.

There is nothing wrong in principle with the nomadic life , many have no doubt found it fufiling.

Maybe some Somalis would prefer a nomadic life to the one you have adapted to in Toronto.
I do not have an American mindset, I grew up and was educated in England,
We were taught quite a lot about other peoples , often by those who had lived
around the world. There was at least in that school an attitude of "don't think that you are in iny better or more intelligent than those in other lands ", because you are not.
Jokingly we used to say , " we are being trained to serve a British empire which no longer exists.

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18 Sep 09, 11:35pm
Will Somalia ever get it right in Somalia?

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18 Sep 09, 11:36pm
lightreading

Read the authors essay and read my first post. Also read other sources and come to your own informed conclusion why the majority of Somalis have stromge negative feelings toward the United States. This feeling is deep and widespread. It is so widespread that one would have expected a radical policy shift from the Obama administration. But Americans think they can use their deeply engrained cowboy and Indian mindset in dealing with these proud nomads!

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18 Sep 09, 11:38pm
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. lightreading
18 Sep 09, 11:50pm
Halgeel,

Please to not patronize me. You do not know who I am, or what I know about somalia (except what I've said, which is that I've never been there), or about anything else about me. Please do not lecture me about what I need to read, and thank you but I have already come to some preliminary conclusions (in life, all conclusions are preliminary...) about Somalia, what some Somalis think about the US and other countries. And they do not comport with your opinions, sorry to say. You do know that people can disagree with you without being ignorant, stupid or hateful racists, right?

Also, America is a very diverse country with a wide range of viewpoints. Using cliches and silly generalizations to characterize Americans and their various midsets does you no favors.

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18 Sep 09, 11:53pm

farfrom

Actually, I have a thick skin. However, it is clear the Americans and those who receive their knowledge about Somalia through BlackHawk-Down ways of knowing or other U.S, centric sources think we are primitive hunter/gathered society. Funny thing is the majority of Somalia are well informed about world affairs, a quality the British understood by running Somalia language program for the last 50 years. Today, it is more likely Somali nomads are hooked to the worldwide web and have shortwave radios. This is what American imperialists have tried to destroy in Somalia. Somalis are proud people and this does not go well with the American imperialists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4020259.stm

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18 Sep 09, 11:56pm
Tragically, we Somalis always blame others for our failures. It is not US that caused our troubles. Colonial times was over in 1960. We have even no right to talk about the missing Reserve area (so called Ogaden) or NFD when we so terribly have failed to run the southern part. The US had a good intention in 1993. People like Iman worked very hard to rise the Somali issue on the table of the white house. US has no use of Somalia. We have no oil, no gold mines, and not even brain resources. What about the rich Arab nations? Are they better for you? The west has at least accepted our refugees and given them shelter and human dignity. US tried to help us to restore hope. It was the wild and evil troops of Aideed and his clan-manipulated followers who rejected that help. It was the same people who chased, tortured, and killed thousands of innocent citizens for being Daarood clan members. The same people are now once again being infiltrated and manipulated. This time by foreign terrorists who uses religion to excuse their evil agenda. They know that Somalis love Islam, so they exploit this to find a save haven for their bloody war against humanity. They are looking for a new land with eternal anarchy, since Pakistan and Obama administration have been determined to exterminate al-qaeda in Afghanistan.
So my friend blame to Somalis for somalli problems. We will never recover unless we admit our foults to ourselves.

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19 Sep 09, 12:03am

ANOS

Iman is just a model! She was beyond her modeling prime time and she needed little bit of PR! She did not save lives . And yes, we need NFD and Ogaden. Location is all that matters and we are being killed, maimed and attached for the location of our country.

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19 Sep 09, 12:09am
As far as this article is concerned,

The US set out to kill someone who they concluded is guilty of attacking soverign US territory (our african embassy). The US forces did kill that person. Minimal (if any) civilian suffering / destruction of civilian property took place in the process. As with any military activity, there is the possibility of political consequences, but there are (possibly worse) consequences to not acting, or acting in another way, and no case is made here that the consequences of this action are worse than the alternatives, or even especially bad to begin with (I mean, I realize Somalis may not like US or other foreign meddling. And the US does not like having their embassies bombed, and does not like those who harbor the perpetrators. So what's new?)

If this act by the US is a catastrophic failure, I suppose the US needs more such failures.

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19 Sep 09, 12:21am
halgeel84

A PR for Iman? Yo're kidding!! What is PR for your? Millions of starving children? thousands of rabed women?
First, remove the arab terrorists from your country, and then try to manage Mogadishu to be a place for civilized people (as it once was) before talking about NFD or Reserve area. Somalias location is not special. It is special perhaps for pirates only. Wake up my friend, Somalia lost its strategical location when the cold war ceased. If we don't value our country , I promise then that it has no value for anyone else.

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19 Sep 09, 12:37am

ANOS

The real heroine of Somalia during the famine was not Iman but the Irish President Mary Robinson. The best organization that tried to help Somalia was the Irish Catholic organization, Irish Concerns. Iman came for the publicity and the Americans came to use Somalia as a training grounds. Ms. Robinson came because of compassion and Irish concern came with compassion and seeds that Somalis could grow their own food.

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19 Sep 09, 12:56am
ANOS

Well said. I am no Somali expert but agree it is not to do with any "lost" provinces and it does get my goat when people that have accepted a safe haven in the west then blame us for all the Ill's in their mother county.

Soon the west will stop taking in refugees (I hope we do not get to the stage of expelling people). Maybe when the hope of a better life Abroad has gone they will start making their lives better in their homeland.

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Clip | Link Guiteau
19 Sep 09, 1:54am
@PresD:

So we killed Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan, a vicious, murdering terrorist who had strong links with al Qaeda.

Accusations are not proof. Your dismissal of core legal mechanisms such as due process is disturbing, Pres. D. Why do you hate the west so much? Oh, and which helicopter were you in? Could you provide us with a blow-by-blow account of the event?

These days, calling someone racist is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Only for those who substitute leaden bromides for reflection.

@Halgeel:
Hello. Could you expand on US destabilization of Somalia? What is to be gained?

@WCSaalax:
Thanks for an informative article.

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19 Sep 09, 2:06am
Guiteau

Accusations are not proof. Your dismissal of core legal mechanisms

Not True, Americans have traditionally had a wanted system Wanted Dead or Alive. I am sure this Guy had a bounty on his head.

If he was innocent he could have handed himself in to a Neutral country (Swiss Embassy) and sought to clear his name. Could also have had a chat with Aljazeera explaining how/why he was innocent

I have no dount the he was a murdering terrorist.

Live by the sword (of Allah) Die by special forces

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Clip | Link gulliver055
19 Sep 09, 2:06am
whats happening in the niger delta?

why was patrice lumumba killed?

why can't the people of the congo benefit from the goldrush?

* * *

don't be silly. it is about security.

what is africom for?

why are they training those militias?

* * *

african post contributors, i doubt you know how rich you are or how much you are being robbed as a continent. one mineral to follow to get an idea of the cash involved - cassiterite. (spellcheck.) as a circuitry replacement it is no bauxite, but given worse-than-slave mines there's no tax, no wealth, no progress, just pure plunder and violence. what is africom doing? what are the 20k troops failing to do, worse, participating in?

you do not need to be a somali expert to see that the horn of africa to the west with its courts islam was approaching relative - very relative - stability. then the us intervened and backed an invasion stressing somaliland to the hilt.

again, where is africom?

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19 Sep 09, 2:22am

Guiteau

Somalis are the largest single ethnic group in the Horn of Africa, occupying from Jabuti or former French Somaliland in the Red Sea to NFD in Northern Kenya to deep in Southern Ethiopia also known as Oganden and along 3000KM of the Indian Ocean.
Somalis are Muslims; they speak with same language. After the end of WWII, the British proposed the creation of single Somaliland state. The United States opposed that plan. Ethiopia is a landlocked country but its considered trusted friend of the West. By weakening Somalia, the French and Americans and the British are that soon Somalia will reach a point were it can be broken up into entities- Somaliland, Jubaland, Puntland, and so on could be overlorded by Ethiopian and Kenyan leadership. This is alredy happening.

The United States and the French and British are the driving force behind this and they are working with Ethiopia and Kenya. Another, let us 10 years of stateless, Somalia can be broken up because by then the world community would accept the break up of Somalia. America wanted to control the Indian waters of Somalia and the way it wanted to control that is to destroy Somalia.

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19 Sep 09, 2:22am
@Voltaire
having no doubts is not the same as having proof. you understand that without some standard of legal procedure it's strictly lord of the flies? ah, but then you have no doubts. case closed.

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19 Sep 09, 2:37am
In reality the current conflict in Somalia will not end until the question of Ogaden is properly addressed because members of the 4M Somalis who live under Ethiopian domination come to Somalia and enter in the military and the politics and continue the fight for liberation by other means.

Meles Zinawi and western powers know this and their preferred method of meeting this threat is destabilising Somalia. This is one of the reasons we hear very little about the mass slaughter of Somalis in Ethiopian occupied territory. In NDF province of Kenya, the Somalis are treated as second class citizens but the situation there is not as dire as in Ethiopia. I came across these two links. Some may find them useful.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/somalia1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Somalia

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19 Sep 09, 2:40am
@Guiteau

The fact that Shabab, the hard-line Islamic militia group just slaughterd quite a few people supposedly in revenge for this angels death

"We have [gotten] our revenge for our brother Nabhan,” Shabab spokesman Sheikh Ali Mohamud Rage said afterward, according to Reuters

What is your opinion on the Murder of these peacekeepers do you agree that these “infidel” should be killed?

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19 Sep 09, 3:16am

VoltaireRules

Do you know that after the twin suicide bombings, the peacekeepers from Uganda and Burundi did their usual thing of shelling the city as a retaliatory response to their dead soldiers and that have done this many times in the past? Burundi and Ugandan troops have no mandate to be in Somalia. These troops are in Somalia because they receive sweet salaries paid by the United States and EU. I think the moment I knew that Sharif will fail is when he failed to act quickly to remove foreign troops out of Somali soil. He lost the initiative and now Al Shabab have strengthened their position. For the Americans to insist the remaining of forces from Burundi and Uganda in Somalia was to keep the chaos going. There is no any other way to logically explain this any serious intelligence report would have known include the removal of troops from Ethiopia, Uganda and Burundi was key to creating credible transitional government in Somalia.

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19 Sep 09, 3:43am
guiteau

harry lime.

case closed.

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19 Sep 09, 3:53am
Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan was responsible for the bombings of the East African US embassies and a hotel in Kenya, resulting in the deaths of over 200 Africans. Justice was served.I hope Mr. Nabhan enjoys his eternity in hell. He certainly earned it.

How, PresidentD , do you know this? Have you seen any evidence? Or is it your policy toaccept anything the US authorities tell you as being true? And, if it is, would it apply equally to assassinations within the United States?

The arguments in favour of these raids leading to assassinations would apply just as much to Pakistanis ferretting out the ‘pilots’ of drones in Nevada and quickly killing them before rushing off into the night.

They would justify Iraqis, whose relatives had been killed in, say, Fallujah, hiring killers to murder marines or blow up offices used by Blackwater employees.

In short these raids are incitements to revenge killings, by-passing the law and justice systems.
Of course PresidentD, and his like, laugh at the idea that Africans or Arabs could pose such threats.
Deeply racist they cannot conceive of the attacks, which they applaud, being avenged.
Deeply irrational, they justify the killings by telling us that the victims, like Nabhan are very dangerous, too dangerous to arrest.
Then they tell us that to revert in this way, to the mores of the Dark Ages, is necessary to preserve ‘our values’ and our civilisation based on the ‘rule of law.’

It is hard to know who is more deserving of our sympathy: the idiots whose minds are so confused that they contradict themselves so readily. Or the fools who accept their illogical nonsenses, so trustingly.

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19 Sep 09, 4:50am
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19 Sep 09, 5:15am
@Halgeel84

In reality the current conflict in Somalia will not end until the question of Ogaden is properly addressed because members of the 4M Somalis who live under Ethiopian domination come to Somalia and enter in the military and the politics and continue the fight for liberation by other means.

Does Ogaden also have an Ethiopian population? If so then a transfer of sovereignty to Somalia might continue the conflict. The only long term solution is to disagree, but without fighting. Easier said than done, but the peace process in northern Ireland might be a model for the way forward.

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19 Sep 09, 5:36am
The original article is simplistic in blaming the colonial powers for the problems in Somalia. Colonialism ended 50 years ago and Italian and British Somaliland were merged. Whilst I do not doubt that Somalia has legitimate territorial claims on Ogaden and parts of Kenya, they do not begin to explain or justify the collapse of that country, which is mainly down to internal Somali divisions.

To be sure US and Soviet policy has been crude and clumsy based purely on “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”, but that is also true of many other countries which have not collapsed into chaos and endless civil war.

Halgeel does her usual shouting which she never seems to realise is off-putting and counter-productive. Oddly enough the author, for all her anti-western rhetoric, implicitly accepts that many of Somalia’s wounds are self-inflicted, and I respect her honesty for that.

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19 Sep 09, 6:45am
It is clear that Somali society is deeply divided. This means that the only hope of a solution is some kind of agreement which includes all sides and protects the rights of all. It is not good enough for outsiders to “back” on side or othr, as clearly this will only continue the conflict, to the detriment of the ordinary people.

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19 Sep 09, 6:51am
Somalia may try evolving and sort out their own country.
I note the posts on Halgeel, from others, and agree with them.
I consider the US wrong to continue as the worlds policeman, as they face never ending bad comment from rentamouth countries who do nothing anywhere to help anybody.
Its time for the US to ignore wrecks of countires like Somalia and let them stand on their own feet, like most countries manage to do.
I find a deafening silence from the EU who fault the US full time, but keep well back from any action.

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19 Sep 09, 7:10am
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. phorein
19 Sep 09, 9:19am
Pray, brave and self-righteous bashers of Saalax and Halgeel… what exactly are the US and other foreign armies doing in Somalia… ? Except sowing death and destruction ? ‘Cause, you see, that’s the root of the problem…
Somalia nearly managed to get back to normality — which would have been a Muslim normality (what’s so extraordinary there, for a country populated with Muslims ?)… but foreign troops and bombers destroyed this opportunity for Somalians to get back to a semblance of decent life.
Can’t get this ? Are you that thick and prejudiced, as Bacter and Ellis gently suggested ?

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Clip | Link Moeran
19 Sep 09, 10:14am
Good posts Halgeel; a shining light in this hate-fest.

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Clip | Link Ranong
19 Sep 09, 10:21am
I know this is a long-shot but I’ll try it anyway; wouldn’t the world be a safer and better place if the West and its surrogates stopped attacking, invading and occupying Muslim countries?
Just an idea.
By the way, I enjoyed Colonel Kilgore’s contributions; the smell of napalm- the smell of victory- was palpable.

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Clip | Link DrJohnZoidberg
19 Sep 09, 11:13am
ho hum….more of the usual ‘all of somalia’s problems stem from the west.’

the somalis have no responsibility for themselves at all.

it woz them us troops which forced the yoof of somalia to pick up ak’s, drive technicals about and generally terrorise their fellow somali people and attempt to destabilise neighbouring countries…

same old ‘let’s blame the u.s.’ schtick.

sure, outside forces can destabilise any country, but the people of that country have the ultimate responsibility for the way that the country turns out.

the somalis opted for no government and rule of the gun. why is that the u.s.’ or anyone else’s fault?

i’d love to see the somali people get their act together so that there is peace for the majority, but i don’t see it happening unfortunately.

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Clip | Link StoryBud
19 Sep 09, 11:28am
On Somalia, the usual Guardianista simplistic USA bashing won’t wash.

Most of the anti-USA comments above show that the people writing them don’t have a clue as to the the recent history there.

Just more ‘four legs good, two legs bad’ tosh.

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19 Sep 09, 11:41am
It will be right when it gets invaded a planned allied invasion of the Horn of Africa was undertaken i beleive around 2001.

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19 Sep 09, 12:19pm
sorry….didn’t read this…..

but foreign troops and bombers destroyed this opportunity for Somalians to get back to a semblance of decent life.
Can’t get this ? Are you that thick and prejudiced, as Bacter and Ellis gently suggested ?

the old ‘you don’t think as i do, therefore you must be unintelligent, a bigot or both’…nice enlightened line you all take there.

so it was foreign troops who prevented the somalis getting back to a semblance of normal life???? and since when did either the rule imposed by the islamic courts or the would-be rules of al-shabaab constitute either ‘normal life’ or ‘democracy in the interests of all the somali people’?

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19 Sep 09, 1:26pm
Somalia does not register as a main issue to USA goverment.It is part of Middle East Protection policy (Saudi/Israel/Iran) and the need to show people at home that USA still rules in this world.We have been here before and will be here again only when USA has no interests in Middle East will it change.Basically its not about Somalia but,the bigger picture as far as Americans are concerned.

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Clip | Link halgeel84
19 Sep 09, 1:51pm

Moeran

Thank you so much.

Keo2008

I am already being proven correct on my position about NATO/US war in Afghanistan, Missile Shield in Eastern Europe and the Eastern Europe will learn how to respect Russia. As for Somalia, the United States had and still has imperial agenda in Somalia. The result has been nothing but endless suffering for the people of Somalia.

In fact, I see our hope for the future lies with the resurgent Russia, which may oppose further fragmentation of Somalia at UNSC. The Soviets brought progress to Somalia, the Americans brought unmitigated disaster. This is a claim which can be backed up by facts.

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19 Sep 09, 1:57pm

phorein

Somalis are quite enterprising This is the reason why they are still here after 20 years without functioning state. As for the United States, it has done so much evil to Somalia but it has done the same to so many other societies and this way of dealing with the world will destroying the American empire. I said this before and it is worth repeating it now, Somalia is older than the United States and it will outlive the end of American empire.

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Clip | Link Smellthecoffee2
19 Sep 09, 2:05pm
Before we start blaming America, Britain, Italy, Russia or the Martians for the problems of Somalia let us go to the heart of the matter. Somalia has always been a deprived and underdeveloped region of the world whose population has been primarily nomadic. Somali society has proved unable to adapt to the modern world. The adoption of, albeit rudimentary, western medicine has exacerbated the problem. Historically people in poor and undeveloped societies tend to have large families as insurance for old age. However, very high infant mortality rates and lack of modern medicines means that population growth is modest. Once Western medicines are adopted the picture changes as mortality rates go down, but family sizes don’t. Somalia (in common with many other poor and undeveloped societies) has therefore experienced a population explosion which is continuing. According to the Population Research Bureau the population of Somalia is currently 9 million and is projected to grow to 14.3 million in 2025 and 23.8 million in 2050. Nearly half the current population is aged 15 or less and on average Somali women have 6.7 children each. Population growth has long outstripped local food production and Somalis are primarily dependent on international food aid. The consequence is that the place is awash with young men who have nothing to do, but plenty of testosterone to work off. The inevitable consequence is violence. Somalia collapsed years ago and is so far gone that it is difficult to see how it can be rescued. Since most Somalis are Muslim it is likely that that the only glue that can bind the state together and which can form the basis of government institutions has to be based on Islamic culture and religion. Arab countries do support Somalia. Unfortunately some of them simply seem to be intent on recruiting Somalis as footsoldiers in the service of global jihad. The West long ago gave up on Somalia and only tries to contain the problem. In the meantime young Somali men join gangs which, amongst other things, try to hijack the very ships which deliver food aid.

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19 Sep 09, 2:07pm
In this day and age people should realise that fu*kin with the USA may result in helicopters chasing and killing you.

That is just common sense.

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19 Sep 09, 2:31pm

Smellthecoffee2

Have you read what article is about? You may note if you do read it that it is about the United States military’s illegal covert assassinations inside Somalia! Can you see anything wrong with this?

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19 Sep 09, 2:34pm
I see our hope for the future lies with the resurgent Russia, which may oppose further fragmentation of Somalia at UNSC. The Soviets brought progress to Somalia

….unfortunately the soviets brought unmitigated disaster to ordinary russians…which is why they ditched commuism when given the opportunity.

i’m convinced that you would not be so conciliatory towards soviet politics had there been an enduring authotritarian soviet system been in place in somalia for a couple of decades

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19 Sep 09, 2:39pm
@Halgeel: I would have more respect for your opinions if you would admit that many of Somalia’s problems are caused by the Somalis themselves. Always blaming the evil USA is simplistic and implies the Somalis have no control over their own destinies, and that when they fight each other they are being manipulated by the USA.

There was chaos inn the country before the USA got involved. I do not doubt the USA has made things worse, but it is simply naive to imagine that if there was no US involvement all Somalis would live in peace with each other

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19 Sep 09, 2:45pm

I do not think it is only the posters in this blog but the majority of Americans who are poorly equipped to comprehend the broader/ long term and immediate/short term implications of the destructive foreign policies of their country. Even in this case, where the topic is about illegal assassinations of foriegn citizens by the CIA and the Pentagon, the Americans and their supporters cannot understand that if they do this to other people it can also be done to American citizens and officials.

The majority of Americans believe that dropping Nuclear Weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the American war in Vietnam, enduring covert assassinations and regime changes in Latin America, Iran , the U.S illegal invasion of Iraq were not war crimes and crimes against humanity. Rather, they see these military aggression as way of advancing democracy.

This ideology goes beyond those who receive their information from U.S corporate media and Hollywood but also among the educated classes.
Thus, United States is a society which is badly prepared to face the end of the United States imperial domination of the world. Majority of Americans lack the psychological capital to cope with not being number one, or even number seven in the world political and economic order.

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19 Sep 09, 2:49pm

Keo2008

You do not have respect my views. My views are backed up with analytic insights and facts on the grounds. The United States is facing anti-colonial resistance in Somalia and this will not stop until the United States ceases its aggressive militarism against the people of Somalia.

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19 Sep 09, 2:55pm

DrJohnZoidberg

Yes, because Russia is the only global power proven history of paying millions of lives of its citizens to fight against anti-fascists and today it is the only country standing between the world and unrestrained American imperial expansion. Yes, I am much encouraged by Russias new power. Russia is more Internationalist and less imperialist than the United States.

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19 Sep 09, 2:56pm
halgeel84

Have you read what article is about? You may note if you do read it that it is about the United States military’s illegal covert assassinations inside Somalia! Can you see anything wrong with this?

In case you haven’t noticed Somalia is a failed state. As far as I am aware Somalia has not signed any extradition treaties with other countries and neither does it have a legal system where suspected terrorists can be brought to justice. Therefore the US does not have a great deal of choice in the matter. Or are you suggesting that they should sit on their hands and let the jihadists roam free planning their next spectacular? Post 9/11 and 7/7 I doubt that is a viable option.

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19 Sep 09, 3:06pm

Smellthecoffee2

Whether Somalia is functioning or failed State is not the problem of the United States. The point is illegal extra juridical assassinations are wrong because these actions will get back to those who carry out these illegal assassinations. I encourage you to read Thomas Hobbes Leviathan to see why the Law of the jungle-which is what the United States is using when it carries out extra juridical assassinations- are counterproductive and futile.
Alas.

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19 Sep 09, 3:13pm
keo2008

The original article is simplistic in blaming the colonial powers for the problems in Somalia. Colonialism ended 50 years ago and Italian and British Somaliland were merged. Whilst I do not doubt that Somalia has legitimate territorial claims on Ogaden and parts of Kenya, they do not begin to explain or justify the collapse of that country, which is mainly down to internal Somali divisions.

To be sure US and Soviet policy has been crude and clumsy based purely on “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”, but that is also true of many other countries which have not collapsed into chaos and endless civil war.

Errr, isn’t the unjust division of land the root cause of conflicts in Palestine/Israel, or between Pakistan and India over Kashmir for example and many more conflicts all over the world? Yes, leaving a ticking bomb behind makes you responsible partly when the explosion occurs.

To understand the picture in Somalia you have to take all the facts and the history into account. The West through their regional friend Ethiopia and Russia is fueling the conflicts (Arms traders anyone?)

If the EU and America is an honest partner of Somalians and would like to see some Peace prevailing there, why did they overthrow the Courts when they were supported overwhelmingly in the South of Somalia (the conflict zone) and brought about relative stability and tackled piracy etc?

You cannot blame Somalians for this current mess, Somalians did finally get it right after nearly two decades of conflict but we intervened and botched the whole operation and eased the country back to inter fighting.

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19 Sep 09, 3:19pm
halgeel84

Unfortunately the law of the jungle is what it has become. You cannot expect one side in a conflict to abide by the most rigorous interpretation of international law while the other is free to do whatever it likes. Or are you suggesting that terrorism is legal?

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19 Sep 09, 3:23pm
This ‘War on Terror’ has made some people take an absence of leave from all senses.

Logic, understanding what motivates ‘the other, the rule of Law, respect for sovereignty, innocent till proven guilty, questioning the official line etc have all gone out of the window. All you need to do is label someone a terrorist and they become fair game.

It’s ingenious idea if you think about it.

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19 Sep 09, 3:28pm
Enlightner

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19 Sep 09, 3:35pm
sorry about few typos:

DrJohnZoidberg

Yes, because Russia is the only global power with the proven history of paying millions of lives of its citizens to fight against fascists and today it is the only country standing between the world and unrestrained American imperial expansion. Yes, I am much encouraged by Russia’s new power. Russia is more Internationalist and less imperialist than the United States.

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19 Sep 09, 3:41pm

Daveinireland
Nomads don’t own slaves or sell them in their markets. What a preposterous claims there in your posts. I think the Bantu might have a different view.

First, there is no where to show Somali nomads use slavery! As in reality, nomadism is all about self reliance. As for the Americans new love for oppressed groups in Somalia, this is a pathetic move when the United States keeps a more than a million black American men in the U.S. Prison system.

We Somalis know that the smiling black face of Obama is the latest mask of the American imperial corporate classes.

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19 Sep 09, 3:43pm
Enlightner

The problem is not the ‘War on Terror’, but the adoption of terrorism as a strategy by groups with political grievances and which are often sponsored covertly by state actors. Large scale terror attacks pose a threat not just to individual countries, but also to popular acceptance of the laws of war. Laws are not cast in stone. If they do not work they have to be changed or they fall by the wayside.

In any event no war is ever waged on the back of the criminal justice system. “Innocent till proven guilty” is not a concept that applies when war is being waged.

In wartime innocent people always end up dead. However I think it is unlikely that the Americans would have gone to the trouble, risk and expense of targeting that individual in Somalia unless they believed he was a bona fide terrorist.

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19 Sep 09, 3:50pm
First, there is no where to show Somali nomads use slavery! As in reality, nomadism is all about self reliance.

Well, apart from the slave trade in Somali of course. That is until Robecchi Bricchetti kicked up a fuss.

But I’m guessing you’ll claim the only people to use slaves in Somalia where Americans.

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19 Sep 09, 3:57pm

Smellthecoffee2

In wartime innocent people always end up dead. However I think it is unlikely that the Americans would have gone to the trouble, risk and expense of targeting that individual in Somalia unless they believed he was a bona fide terrorist.

Now, using your logic of total war as a justificatory ground for civilian deaths, do you see the logic that the war may come to Americas home front? Do you think that American blood has more moral value than a Somali blood? Do you think that the logic of total war has in implications for the civilian population in the United States?

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19 Sep 09, 4:14pm
halgeel84

Don’t put words into my mouth. I have never advocated total war. What I am saying is that you cannot apply the rules of the Criminal Justice System to the waging of war, “innocent till proven guilty” etc.

But let’s get things into perspective. The Americans have specifically targeted one individual. They have not bombed Somalis indiscriminately. They haven’t sent B52 bombers to carpet bomb Somalia like they did in Cambodia in the 1970’s.

However the ones who are waging total war and in fact going beyond it are the jihadists. They are not just killing civilians indiscriminately, they are targeting them deliberately. Unless the Americans can stop them the implications for the civilian population in the United States are indeed dire. That’s why the Americans are not going to fight with their hands tied behind their backs. The war has already come to Americas home front – remember 9/11?

For the record I do not believe that the blood of some people has greater moral value than that of others. We are all the same. It is the jihadists however who hold the view that “infidels” are worse than pigs and just as expendable.

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19 Sep 09, 4:49pm
@Enlightener: You would be right if the problems in Somalia were all about constant wars with Ethiopia and Kenya trying to reclaim their “lost land”

But the Somalis spend most of their time fighting each other. What on earth has that got to do with Ogaden and the areas in Kenya they claim? I mean other than preventing them pursuing their territorial ambitions.

Sorry, but I stand by my original point.

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19 Sep 09, 5:09pm
DaveinIreland

Well, apart from the slave trade in Somali of course. That is until Robecchi Bricchetti kicked up a fuss.

But I’m guessing you’ll claim the only people to use slaves in Somalia where Americans.

The irony of a colonialist feeling indignant at the supposed mistreatment of others. Hah!

And I’m tired of this simplistic argument of ‘you people want to blame America for everything’ …. It comes with the territory when you’re involved in all four corners of the world, politically, financially and militarily. Fueling conflicts, playing one side off against the other, making judgments solely based on your own narrow interest to the detriment of the people who have to live with those decisions.

If the US was to scale back its ambitions as the World Police, like Russia post the Soviet Union, it would be difficult to attribute blame in that direction.

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19 Sep 09, 5:12pm
keo2008

You would be right if the problems in Somalia were all about constant wars with Ethiopia and Kenya trying to reclaim their “lost land”

But the Somalis spend most of their time fighting each other. What on earth has that got to do with Ogaden and the areas in Kenya they claim? I mean other than preventing them pursuing their territorial ambitions.

Sorry, but I stand by my original point.

Yes but they did stop fighting in 2006 and created their own solution to stabilize their country. We sent our proxy (Ethiopia) to ‘create’ a new government and unleashed violence all over again.

So no, your point doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

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19 Sep 09, 5:18pm
I have absolute no sympathy for the Somali people, they have dug themselves in to this hole through primitive tribalism and religious extremism. They are willing to blame everyone else for their problems, except themselves. I’ll reinterate what I put elsewhere:

I know enough the country has been wrecked by internal fighting between the various clans, and been ravaged and depopulated throughout the centuries by the East African slave-trade. The only threat to the world is countries that export terror, and sadly it seems to be the only export that Somalia has.

I do understand that the countries coast has been massively over-fished by foreign fisherman…I also understand that if it was not for eternal bickering between a bunch of primordial tribes Somalia would be able to stand up for itself instead of blaming every except themselves and those who share their faith.

I’m sorry your country is wrecked, but it is the brutal tribal system vastly beyond everything else, religious extremism comes in distant second, and your closest neighbours interfering that comes in a very distant third.

AND

I find it funny for a Somali to attack the US giving what savagery has been happening in your country since existence. Somalia has been looted since at least the 7th century by Arabs, it’s women taken for sex-slaves, and it’s men taken to work in the baking hot deserts of the Middle-East. Slavery is abhorrent whoever does it…

As for Halgeel bizarre rantings…

To blame it on America, like the American’s spend everyday thinking of ways we can undermine desolate and warring land of little or no value is quite frankly completely and utterly preposterous…Not only that, it is extremely narcissistic.

(And let me remind you, it was the British who single-handedly fought slavery on the East coast of Africa – saving many of your compatriots to a fate worse than death; forced to march across the desert with few rations, with only 1-10 surviving, then being raped or worked to death.)

Remember all these historical facts next time you try to say it’s always the Americans/Jews/Freemasons/Communists/English[/Colonialists] etc. etc. who undermine your country. The same old irredeemably stupid nationalist crap.

It is Somali problem, the Somali’s have there ownselves to blame, and it is only the Somalis who are going to get themselves out of it

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Clip | Link frothing
19 Sep 09, 5:37pm
Anyone with any real local knowledge will know the situation there is a complex regional issue. We have another article on this subject without a single mention of Eritrea. Both Ethiopia and Eritrea were using Somalia as a lawless territory to play out nasty proxy wars well before 9/11. The ICU guns came from Eritrea, the funding and ideology from our friends in Saudi Arbabia.

Halgeel,

The West is not interested in establishing a foothold in Somalia since Clinton gave up on the UN mission. The West’s interest is only containment now. Somalia has nothing of value you see, only religious repression, piracy, terrorism, not to mention a small and corrupt government.

There are muslim areas of Kenya being radicalised by Somali refugees as we speak. The world must not allow Somalia to ruin the rest of the Horn with terrorism, piracy and Islamic extremism.

The dispute the US has with al-Shabab is actually rather simple now. If al-Shabab stops promoting Somalia as a terrorist training ground then this issue goes away. If they stop attacking targets in Kenya and Tanzania then this problem goes away. Frankly, Somali’s should keep their ‘hobbies’ within Somalia and stop trying to ruin the rest of East Africa.

The future looks bleak though. Within the last couple of days the al Shabab launched a suicide mission against AU troops killing about 20 people. No mention of that in the article either which is also strange.

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19 Sep 09, 5:42pm

I think you cannot see that your logic does not work. But this is basically the illogical aggressive war philosophy of the United States that somehow it can attack, attack and attack other people and nothing will happen to the United States. This is also the irrational fantasy behind the neocon dream of Star Wars Missile Shield-which is means to give the United States a First Strike capability without fear of retaliatory counter-strike. The Russians understand this. They have built and continue to upgrade their defense systems knowing the American war mindset.
In addition, The Russians are giving other nations at the eye of American imperial war agenda, such as Iran and Venezuela, sufficient defense weapons to defend their nations. The Russians are not going fall for the Obama latest gimmick, the cancellation of Star War Radar and weapons in the Czech Republic and Poland because Russians knew that these weapons do not work but also because they know American mindset driven by an endless search for global domination.

We know aboutCIA/ Pentagon fiasco after they failed to overthrow the President of Venezuela. Since Obama came to the U.S presidency, Honduras democratic leader has been overthrown by pro United States members of oligarchy. But the coup is now giving birth to a new revolution. What Russia provides to the Third World nations- such as Iran and Venezuela- is defensive weapons and military training as well as economic and trade relations. Whilst, I hate prospect of a new militarisation of the world, as long as the Americans use primarily military force to achieve economic and geopolitical objectives, only those nations with proper defense system are safe from American military aggression.

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19 Sep 09, 5:46pm

frothing

I think it is tricky today to speak about the West when one actually means the United States, the UK and ex-Soviet countries. We can see that particular notion of the West along with the United States dollar as a world reserved currency are in their way out.

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19 Sep 09, 5:51pm
Just keep the shit inside Somalia and everyone will ignore the failed state, like you want them to.

Keep trying to bomb Nairobi and AU troops and the international community is going to fight back. Its pritty simple to understand. Same goes for your pirates who like stealing aid for other East African countries.

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19 Sep 09, 5:55pm
JorgeyBorgey

I have absolute no sympathy for the Somali people, they have dug themselves in to this hole through primitive tribalism and religious extremism. They are willing to blame everyone else for their problems, except themselves. I’ll reinterate what I put elsewhere:

And they dont need your sympathy, they needs the Russians/Formers Eastern block to stop supplying weapons at rock bottom prices (and please dont try to apply market values here). They need the US and its proxy Ethiopia to stop interfering in their business and destabilize the country when it finally found the road to recovery.

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19 Sep 09, 6:15pm
@Enlightener: Oh, so they stopped fighting each othyer in 2006 did they? Even if we take your statement as true- and I would dispute whether civil war has ever been absent from Somalia- you are conceding that from 1960 to 2006 the Somalis were busy fighting each other.

I’ve made my point and your attempts to drag out yuour untenable argument have become tedious. I leave it to other readers to judge whether you have made your case.

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Clip | Link Notsofanatic
19 Sep 09, 7:11pm
I really wish US didnt get it right or wrong in Somalia. I much prefer the US didnt even bother about Somalia all together!

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Clip | Link freewoman
19 Sep 09, 7:12pm
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. lovemymod
19 Sep 09, 7:12pm
Will the US ever get it right in Somalia?

was Lee Harvey Oswald expected to get it right in Dallas?

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19 Sep 09, 7:16pm
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. halgeel84
19 Sep 09, 8:04pm

Keo2008

It seems that you lack understanding of the complex dynamics of this conflict and the United States long and painful role in the internal affairs of Somalia. Mark my words, the United States will leave Somalia in defeat.

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19 Sep 09, 8:17pm
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. freewoman
19 Sep 09, 8:36pm
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. halgeel84
19 Sep 09, 9:13pm

BobBornLondon1943

Of what and by whom? It is plainly clear that the American imperialists want to get hold of Venezuelas vast natural resources but thanks to the Great Russias support of this small Latin American nation, the American imperialists would have to purchase Venezuelas oil and gas rather than grabbing them by force. The American imperialists have fewer and fewer friends throughout the world because of their aggressive attitude.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdCkbSWU_-w&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5irHZombHZY&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QouFCRuaqzY

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=4235

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=74&jumival=408

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19 Sep 09, 9:14pm
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. halgeel84
19 Sep 09, 9:15pm

freewoman

Could you explain what FGM has to do with CIA/Pentagon extra Juridical assassinations?

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19 Sep 09, 9:30pm
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19 Sep 09, 9:41pm
Millions of people in this world, like Saalax and Halgeel, had to flee their destroyed country because of the mess heavy-booted US imperialists and their stooges have brought.
It’s quite different to be in a foreign country as a big-gun tottering invader, and to be a refugee. “Me-me” baby-talkers here don’t seem to get this obvious point.
Eat less hamburgers, try using your little grey cells.

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Clip | Link Nationtv
19 Sep 09, 9:45pm
Somalia is a country of nomadic people-after British invasion during 18 century ,there was a comment about Somalia and British relations . it was based on respect and defend their clan mentality and religious sprituality .

After 2 century war between Europe and Somalia were on ,the country responsible all problems in Somalia was Italy-

Civilwar and chaos from clan mentality and finally religious war between somali islamic groups.

America have no role all these issues ,this is a war between europe and somalia for 200 hundred years and will be on for the next 100 years unless you accept soverignty of this nation and this people are the same people you were fighting for 18 century.

America have a new name called war on terror ,broke people who don’t have a bread are terrorists -those who filled their stomach more snacks are not terrorist. this is all game-i don’t care the policy but i care about mentality.

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19 Sep 09, 9:56pm
so the yanks got their man…guess they’re happy.

now, what’s the solution for somalia? if the west butts out, then it needs t otake the bucks with it.

if the russians want to set up a govt, so be it. it would be interesting to see how a putinocracy worked outside of russia.

no one appears to have asked the somali people yet, what they want. if they want armed militia terrorising them. if they’d prefer a bunch of religious crazies imposing literal scripture with extreme prejudice.

or, shit, maybe they’d like all the guns to go down, a bit of talking to start and to start attracting some inward investment to improve everyone’s lives and develop an infrastructure.

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Clip | Link halgeel84
19 Sep 09, 10:13pm

DrJohnZoidberg

so the yanks got their man…guess they’re happy.

Are you sure that Yanks got their “Man”? Is allegation of a crime enough for the Yanks to risk their moral value by killing this man?

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Clip | Link ngavc
19 Sep 09, 11:01pm
“Helicopter-borne US special forces carried out a revenge raid in Somalia that killed a top al-Qaida commander high on the FBI’s most wanted terrorist list, US officials in Washington said last night. Saleh Ali Nabhan, 28, a leader of al-Shabab, a group closely linked to al-Qaida, was alleged to have been involved in the bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 that killed 229 people.” Cited article.

This is an example of a perfect battle victory in the war on terrorism. This is the type of raid we should use to kill OBL. Forget nationbuilding which you seem to think is possible. And Somali history is not relevant here. We can’t fix the place. Defending the American heartland is why we have a military.

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Clip | Link Midland
19 Sep 09, 11:14pm
Halheel84 you frankly are the most entertaining poster I have yet seen on these pages.

All countries are out for themselves the US, Russia and given the chance the Somalian nation/s. To breakdown history into some sort of evil America and good Russia paradigm is just infantile.

What you and the author of this article is guilty of is nothing more than ethno-centric nationalism of the brand that has sustained the instability. Your irredentist rails for the Ogaden or parts of Kenya will only fuel more violence and greater poverty.

@Bacter

I think the point is that when the chips are down its the evil west that people choose to go to not Venezuela and not Russia.

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Clip | Link Ciid
19 Sep 09, 11:27pm
Halgeel you are a true Somali worrior, you ‘ve taken all this people on and still standing with your head high. You are a true example that Somalia will prevail regardless of what anyone wants. you reminded me of Abdallah Hassan the faher of Somali nationalism, he took on the allmighty British empire and they couldn’t get him until they have decided to use an air strike, don’t you think that history repeats itself only actors changed!

halgeel the ciber warrior! educate and show who the Somalis are proud very proud indeed!

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Clip | Link Ciid
19 Sep 09, 11:33pm
also halgeel

these people can’t go beyond (you are with us or against us) !

guys
if someone tells you your wrongs it doesn’t mean they hate you!

I think also the author have showed the evil of Somalis too, so don’t pls feel singled out! or do you want to say anything under freedom of speech and when someone says something you don’t like you try to maim others as anti west!

If someone is so uncivil it is this attitude, so repent, an relax ! take it easy take a shot of vodka and chil!

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Clip | Link Ciid
19 Sep 09, 11:38pm
and by the way all, Somali was the first country Britain used ai strike on back in 1919, that hopeless they felt!

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Clip | Link halgeel84
19 Sep 09, 11:41pm

Ciid

thank you so much Ciid. I do not hate people, I hate class of people who want to maitain their unearned power at the expense of weak people. They these people see nothing wrong with killing Somalis! To them we are nothing.

Daveinireland
19 Sep 09, 11:44pm
and by the way all, Somali was the first country Britain used ai strike on back in 1919, that hopeless they felt!

You sure they didn’t try an air strike or two a few years before in a little thing called WW1?

halgeel84
19 Sep 09, 11:59pm
Ciid

I am more than certain American generals know very little about the nature of the people of Somalia; their tenacity and will to resist domination. They also think we are all clanistic and that we have no humanistic views. I would not call myself a nationalist as much as anti-colonial and a believer in revolutionary struggle against in justice. I think this feeling in all sorts of ways. My favorite British novelist is Thomas Hardy because his words express deeply felt feelings about his society and injustices against women and the poor.

phorein
20 Sep 09, 12:06am
Dear Halgeel, I agree with Ciid, you’re brave. A real Somali woman. Warm-hearted, proud and tough.
I don’t know about you, but if you’re like most Somali women, you must be beautiful too… Keep in mind that’s one of the reasons some couch morons hate you as a people, in the same way they hate other people such as the Amerindians, the Tutsi and the Vietnamese: because they’re proud, courageous, beautiful and tough people — the opposite of what they are.
They can’t break you down. So they cowardly drop bombs on your country, and houndpack you when you’re isolated.
Keep going. It’s when the going gets tough that the tough gets going.

mabarker
20 Sep 09, 5:14am
Looks like to me the U.S. Navy Seals took out some bad guys that have terrorized the neighborhood. That doesn’t sound like failure to me. The only failure is we have not done more of that. Like Bubba Clinton leaving the Rangers to die. We now have to worry about waterboard crap. Doesn’t anyone realize we are fighting a war of civilization?

Keo2008
20 Sep 09, 8:24am
@NationTV: You have got your history all wrong. Italy was the main -player in the conquest of Somaliland and the conquests of the area took place in the 1880s. Colonial control of Somaliland lasted less than a century.

A number of posters have expressed admiration for Halgeel and her spirited posts. Just for a bit of balance, I do not share these sentiments. Whilst she is perfectly entitled to her views and obviously knows a lot about the country, its people and history, she has a very narrow specific anti-western agenda that she peddles, which is grossly simplistic, and she dismisses anyone who dares disagree with her with patronising statements on the lines of “you cannot possibly comment on this as you don’t know what you are talking about. Listen to me because I do know”

By preaching at us rather than engaging in debate, she does her arguments no favours

freewoman
20 Sep 09, 8:31am
Halgeel

Everything we know through every branch of the study of human growth and development tells us that treating children and women with cruelty results in damaged people. For instance malnutrition in pregancy ups the rate of psychopathy. Abuse during certain periods of brain growth ensures that the adult will be more likely to resolve conflict violently. They will make less good decisions . They will not be able to remember (fdamaged hippocampus) and therefore unable to learn from previous experience.
All the worlds institutions recognize that the health of a nations human capital is vital for success on any measure. Somalia is shoving any hope of progress and peace down the plug by the way it treats its own. Smell the coffee is right about there no longer being the “natural” and horrible curbs to tribal peoples population growth.

Somalia will keep right on producing vast numbers of damaged people unless it deals with harmful practices. Since the damage to an infants brain happens before any politics it is the primary cause of conflict.

The world needs to find a way of protecting Somali fish stocks but we can’t even protect massive tankers.

Blaming the “west” is BS while Somalia keeps shoving the health of its people down the plug with savage and brutal practices towards its own.

Actually direct and targetted attacks are the right thing to do. Some people only understand very direct and personal threat. They live in the here and now and in their senses. susan Greenfield describes this well.

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Clip | Link atkin
20 Sep 09, 12:00pm
the black and white argument of clash of civilisation / west vs east is stupid to say the least – drop it – this is “historical context ” is not to finger point!

Somalis are as guilty, from barre to aidid, and none Somalis are as guilty from colonialists to the US!

unless you didn’t get it, everyone is wrong in this, and the point is to think about that!